I was talking with my sister from the “Arrogant East” the other day. She said she would never move back to Utah because we’re all just a bunch of “Cultural” Mormons. Not like the Mormons (like herself) back East who have to fight for their beliefs and such. I have to disagree. Yes, it’s easier to slide by in Utah without having your convictions challenged, and you are not as readily tempted by liquor stores, porn shops, brothels, and global warming freaks everywhere, but you have challenges nonetheless. Not least among these is the innate desire to rebel against the Mormon “culture.”
One of our High Councilmen (yes, you Eastern Mormons, they’re called CouncilMEN, not CouncilPERSONS) spoke at our thoroughly “Utahized” Sacrament Meeting last Sunday (nope, not a single person in flip-flops, and very few with goatees—but we don’t speak to them). He was admiring all the beautiful young women for their modest prom dresses. The night before was our high school’s prom. He was raised outside the Church out in the “real” Mormon territory and, even though not in the Church at the time, was saddened by the risque and immodest dresses girls used to wear at proms when he was growing up. He was touched by the simple, clean beauty evident in these Utah young women.
Why was Joseph Smith commanded to build a Zion city (Utah)? Was it so that we can relax our guard and not worry about being tempted? NO! It was so that we wouldn’t have to take up all our time dealing with stupid worldly vices and be able to focus more on the love for one another and learning of higher ideals that would bring us closer to a heavenly kingdom on earth. In this sense, preferring to live in the East where things are more “real” is like going to X-rated movies to prove we won’t fornicate, or hanging out in a bar to prove we won’t drink.
This argument made by Eastern Mormons is simply a coverup for their disdain for what they perceive as culturally backwards ignorant Utah Mormons. It is all an illusion. If you look at the stats, Utah has essentially the same teen pregnancy rates, similar divorce rates, plenty of drunk driving, a larger state prison system than most states its size, and the highest online porn subscription rate in the country (must be all those polygamous tendencies in our blood), in short, plenty of vices to make the Eastern Arrogant Mormon feel right at home. Okay, so there are those annoying missionary two-for-one suit billboards in Utah County, I’ll give you that. And the lack of facial hair on the BYU campus. Alright, seeing a Mormon chapel on almost literally every block can be annoying too, since they all look alike. But overall, you wouldn’t know you were in Utah versus, say, Nebraska or Montana if you didn’t turn up your nose the instant you landed here.
Maybe the Utah Development Board should campaign to attract more non-Mormons to come live here so that re-patriated Eastern Mormons will have someone to play with. The campaign slogan could be something like, “Utah: We’re just like you, but without the arrogance.”
This is a fascinating little post…I can’t really figure out what the end message is (is it satire about Eastern Mormons in the end or Utahns?)
I guess I’m not the person to speak on this issue, but I think the difference is somewhat reversed. Unlike your sister, I don’t appreciate “the east” because we have to fight for our beliefs more (in fact, it’s ANNOYING and TIRING to have to be confronted by evangelicals, baptists, pentacostals, etc., because you’re in the heart of the Bible Belt where Mormons are seen as cultists). Instead, what Eastern Mormons would lambaste about Utah Mormons is that the “culture” there is stifling. It is so insulated and creates unrealistic expectations. For example, BYU honor code policies of absolutely no facial hair (unless you have a beard card) — this is hyperstrict and doesn’t represent a real rule of the church, so Eastern Mormons are glad not to have such an artificial and pharasaical constraint. And other things, on whether diet coke is acceptable, etc.,
Because there is more diversity of thought and opinion, it’s more refreshing than hearing the same people over and over.
Sure, there’s a clean beauty to modest Utah young women that outpaces and outclasses any of the depravity outside, but then you also find a nagging naivete and expectation from the heart of Mormon culture that would make these women annoying to deal with elsewhere (especially in a relationship, in family life, or in the community). And then you realize that that *is* integral to Utah Mormon culture.
Andrew,
Your points are well taken, and I agree there is some “shelteredness” going on here in Utah. But, what is “annoying” is sometimes only that way because we are the ones overly exposed. Someone coming back from a war, being exposed to death and carnage, would be annoyed by our ignorance of those horrors, but does that mean we should go live in the war zone so we know what he is talking about?
There are rare cases of ignorant young women (and much rarer young men) in Utah, but you’ll find that almost all of them learned all the essentials, if not experiencing them, to compete with any Eastern girl head-to-head. They watch TV, go to movies, etc. There are examples, but the majority of Utahans are not as naive as you might think (my wife certainly wasn’t).
I pretty much agree with you on the BYU dress and grooming codes. It bothered me when I was there, not for myself, but because I didn’t know a person’s true personality. I could be dating a nose-pierced, tattooed “issue”-laden rebel (at heart) and not know it because she had to follow the code. I say let them all wear and be who the want (with some very basic restrictions, of course) and that would help us all in weeding out the ones with “issues” simply by sight—save a lot of time.
On the diet Coke issue, that should be banned nationwide! It tastes like leprous pee! Just kidding. You’ll find plenty of bishops, stake presidents, primary presidents, and maybe even a general authority or two addicted to the stuff. Everyone knows it’s not good for you (even back East), so you can’t blame people for wanting to avoid it. But contrary to the myth, you won’t usually be looked at askance for drinking it in public here in Utah.
Living in Las Vegas for several years, I know what “Eastern” Mormons have to deal with. It was a relief to come back to Utah and not me challenged at every turn to lower my standards. I agree with you there.
I served my mission in Washington, D.C. and the more enjoyable Mormons there saw many advantages to living there AND living in Utah. My point is that we need not look down on each other. Arrogance only limits our understanding and opportunities.
It’s not necessarily that young women or young men would not know the “essentials,” but in terms of goals and attitudes, it is just so very different. I mean, let’s take the idea of nose-pierced and tattoo’d rebel. Even worse than your grievance (that because of the sameness encouraged by standards, you don’t get to know the different personalities) is the idea that spreads further that people who don’t follow these artificial standards are unworthy to even be dealt with. And you seem to AGREE with it: “weed out the ones with ‘issues’ on sight.” One thing that the so-called eastern Mormons know well is that just because you LOOK different doesn’t mean you have issues, and just because you look prim, clean, BYU-friendly doesn’t mean you do not have issues.
I know young men who would not date a young woman who wears more than one earring in each ear because the culture is one earring. So, while someone could be really GETTING TO KNOW SOMEONE, instead, they use these visual cultural judgment criteria. Same with women would would never consider dating anyone but an RM. I mean, there’s one thing to maintain high standards, but there’s another thing to be exclusionary and miss the point. This is a pharisaical problem and that is what I meant by my comments on the insulation, unrealism, and annoying nature.
Of course I agree that we need not look down at each other. We simply recognize the differences and recognize which culture we would rather identify with, without suggesting that one is superior to the other.
You hit the nail right there at the end, Andrew, it’s what we CHOOSE to identify with. What those Eastern Mormons need to say is, “I’m more comfortable among the tattooed masses than among high-standard living Mormons.” And that’s okay, but say it like it is, not, “You Utah Mormons are all just a bunch of cultural conformists, and ignorant to boot.” We choose to live in this environment, much like the pioneers who crossed the plains chose to “leave the world behind” to live in a Zion society. You can have a Zion society out in the East, sure, but you would have to live the standards of such a society which would “mark” you there as a non-conformist.
Nose-rings and tattoos are merely symptoms of POSSIBLE deeper issues. The “ruling out” can go both ways: I might want a girl with a nose-ring, maybe I might find that sexy. But that is just the point, we have a culture in Utah that focuses away from dwelling too much on ourselves and making statements with our appearance. (I was going to say we evolved beyond that, but that would be arrogant, I guess.) The cold hard reality is that 90% or more of the time such non-conformities ARE symptoms of deeper issues. It is too bad for the 10% or less that are perfectly normal and chose these non-conformist attributes.
One nice thing about Utah, in this sense, is that you can make your statement with very little effort. To get noticed in the “East” you’ve really got to perform.
In sort, the “East” is a place for Mormons who have a psychosis for rebellion and non-conformity. It is easier for them to live the standards of the Church where it marks them as different. They love the attention. They think that makes them stronger in the Church. If such is the case, than they are not truly living their religion. Conformity and non-conformity is NOT an issue in heaven or a Zion society. There is no focus on oneself, but only on others. We’re not there yet in Utah, and certainly not there in the “East,” but we shouldn’t mock each other for our efforts.
“I’m more comfortable living among the tattoo’d masses than among pharisaical standard-living Mormons.”
I think this is what the Eastern Mormon criticism ultimately is, and we *do* say it. However, endemic with that *is* that Utah Mormon are insulated cultural conformists, and that’s *precisely* because you have chosen to cross the plains and “leave the world behind.” So, that also is saying it like it is.
The entire idea of a Zion society as for Utah Mormons and that of Mormons elsewhere is drastically different as a result. The eastern Mormons would suggest that cloistering and insulation is not Zion, especially when even the Savior spent time with publicans and other lowly seen people of society. (But that’s a low blow).
The idea is not that you want a girl with a nose-ring or you don’t want a girl with a nose-ring. It’s that the nose-ring ultimately means very little with respect to personality, and by making unbased standards based on certain visual aspects (and there’s a distinction between modesty minimums and the culture that goes over and beyond), very often, people miss the personality. So, it’s funny that you point out that Utah culture still is so focused on outside appearances…because even my point wasn’t to say you might want someone with (insert outside appearance here).
The cold hard reality is that 90% or more of the time such non-conformities ARE symptoms of deeper issues.
Just as a protip for the future…a comment like this is *precisely* the reason why people do not want to associate with Utah culture…because these kinds of comments are not isolated. People actually believe that the “cold hard reality” is that these outer appearance issues overwhelmingly dictate deeper issues (you can play with the percentages all you want, but the disagreement is fundamental).
I would contend (and then again, I’m not the best person to talk to, but still) that east Mormons don’t live in the East because they have a “psychosis for rebellion and non-conformity” (but it’s nice to know that you think that, I guess?)…really, it’s not about attention…because again, the attention is rarely good. Being a “peculiar person” is not good fame. So, the judgment that Eastern Mormons are doing things just for attention doesn’t even seem to make SENSE, much less match with reality.
Way back in the late 1600′s, several Quaker religious zealots kept coming back into the Puritan colony of Massachusetts. The Puritans kept kicking them out. They would go to Rhode Island for awhile and then they would come back. The Puritans warned them if they came back again they would be hanged. They did, and were hanged. (One of them the first woman to be hanged in America.) Why did they do this? They were perfectly free to practice their religion in Rhode Island and Massachusetts isn’t particularly more attractive then there.
My contention is that there is an attraction for some people for being persecuted. Earlier I stated that the more “enjoyable” Mormons in Washington, D.C. were the ones that loved living in Utah AND loved living in the East. The less enjoyable Mormons were the ones that enjoyed the East more because of the chances they had to defend their religion—much like those Quakers in Massachusetts. They love to contend. They loved to stick their noses in the air and show how caring they are by being among the “sinners” and remaining above it all. To be a shining beacon on a hill for the purpose of exalting themselves.
Now, I’ve mislead you into the impression that Utah has no “tattooed” masses. I don’t know where you’re from (I’ve got to check out your blog), but there are plenty of non-conformists here and they add constructive variety to our boring Utah lives. I work with a guy who has the “works”—nose-ring (with a chain to the ear), tattoos everywhere, and piercings in places you don’t want to know. I also work daily with several women with tattoos and such. They are wonderful people. I enjoy them. Our county’s economic development director had a sex-change operation and he’s Mormon! Still is! It was the same in Las Vegas. I worked there with several gay people. Nothing wrong with them, other than being gay. (If that is still wrong in the Eastern Mormon Church.) So, the differences are really in what we CHOOSE to see and how we choose to react. Again, if you don’t turn your nose up the minute you land in Utah, you might actually find it an enjoyable place, with just as much variety and vice as you will ever need, unless you’re trying to make a statement and get hanged.
I guess if your personal experiences lead you to find those kinds of Look-at-me-I’m-so-Righteously-Persecuted Mormons, then I guess those are your experiences and I can’t change them.
I’m certain that there are plenty of non-conformists in Utah, most definitely. I’m of course aware that Utah is becoming increasingly more non-Mormon, interestingly enough. But that is not to say that Utah is not still distinctly Mormon, with Mormons holding most of the political, cultural, and social authority.
So, I guess this leads to an impasse. In the same way you are grounded in your experiences, I’m grounded in mine. The back and forth never gains any ground.
One more thing: I’m totally against stereotyping, and that is what we all need to work on, not just Utah Mormons (Eastern Mormons might just be stereotyping the Utah ones, maybe?), but, honestly, how many “nose-ringed” people do you know also live the law of chastity? Granted, there may be a few, but not many. I have tattooed, tongue-pierced, immodestly-dressed people in my own family—I know what comes in the same boat. I love them, would do almost anything for them, but I wouldn’t want my son or daughters to marry one of them (and not just because they’re in the family—you know what I mean). They have baggage. In these cases I know exactly what the baggage is, since I’m from the same spawn.
There are degrees, I’ve even been known to have facial hair (but I’ll deny it if you bring it up). : ) We don’t say in Utah that just because a person smokes he’s a bad person, no one I know in Utah thinks that way. But it is perfectly safe to say that that person had a rebellious or troubled youth. How many 40 year olds suddenly take up smoking? And if they do, wouldn’t you say they are STUPID for doing so. Character assessments can be made by appearances. They are like road signs. Just because there is a “Falling Rocks” sign by the road doesn’t mean there will always be rocks on the road ahead, it simply means to be cautious. Why risk your eternal welfare and happiness by ignoring the signs? If you want to take the risks, more power to you, but don’t look down on the Utah guy who looks for rocks on the road.
All of this is beside the point. Utah is no different than the East as far as the basic characteristics of people are concerned. It is all an illusion. We are all “Real” Mormons. If you don’t like Utah because of the desert climate, that’s fine, but using the “culture” is a copout.
Plenty.
I could show you a picture of a guy who is *particularly* tattoo’d all over and he’s a better Mormon despite not even being a member than many Mormons, Utah or not, I know.
And keep in mind that when I refer to the nose-ring is just a symbol for something more. What about the members who freak out if someone merely has a BEARD in church. Or, a man wearing a non-white SHIRT in church. These are completely non-doctrinal excesses of the culture of the church in certain areas.
– Not to mention, you still have a barrier. So, at one end, we have people who are completely with the letter of the law and with the culture (white-shirt wearing, clean-cut members). Then there are people who are with the letter of the law, but not the culture (blue-shirt wearing, bearded members). But what about people who aren’t following the letter of the law or the culture, but who are still worthwhile people.
“We don’t say in Utah that just because a person smokes he’s a bad person, no one I know in Utah thinks that way. But it is perfectly safe to say that that person had a rebellious or troubled youth. How many 40 year olds suddenly take up smoking? And if they do, wouldn’t you say they are STUPID for doing so. Character assessments can be made by appearances.”
This is another time when I feel I’ve entered bizarro world. Do you still not see the presumptuousness by this? So, you state that you do not categorically think someone is a bad person just because they break some Mormon law. BUT then you turn around and say something just as bad: “It’s perfectly safe to say that this person had a rebellious or troubled youth.” And you say it so smoothly…’it’s perfectly safe to say’… But don’t you realize this is precisely what outsiders hear Utah Mormons saying and is surprisingly indicative of the prevalent thought…and it turns people off. You say, “Character assessments can be made by appearances.”
I mean, you say that using the “culture” is a copout to not like Utah, but even from some of your very telling comments, it’s like you don’t even realize some of the rather shocking things (but which sound absolutely fine to you) that you’re saying.
[...] I stumbled upon this smaller blog that was talking about “Cultural” Mormons. [...]
There is nothing “shocking” about assuming someone who smokes picked it up in their youth. EVERY smoker I know says they picked up the habit when they were teenagers and EVERY one regrets it. And every one, EVERY ONE, did “other” things in their youth along with the smoking that they are not proud of today. (Haven’t we all?) I’m not saying they are bad people. I get along better with some of them than any of the Shiite Mormons I know. All I’m saying is that safe assumptions can be made. Everyone must make assumptions to one degree or another simply to survive in this world. You can go around and say to yourself all day, “I’m not going to judge, I’m not going to judge,” and someday when you wake up and discover that your “sign”-ridden spouse (signs that you chose to ignore) is having an affair, you can at least say you didn’t judge. That you gave her a fair chance. That’s great, if you think you can handle it.
That said, I agree with you that hyper-sensitivity to “signs” is very wrong. I’ve tried to point out that such is not really the case in Utah, at least not any more than it is elsewhere. I wear a brown shirt and and suit to church all the time, but I do have white shirts for going to the temple. There is a place and time for conformity and there is a place and time to be yourself. (The temple specifically states that we are not to draw attention to ourselves—that’s not why we are there. It’s really quite refreshing.) Our Elder’s Quorum presidency councilor has a full beard! They even called him to the position when he had the beard! The shame! Right here in Utah, nonetheless! My Stake President drinks Pepsi. I don’t know how we let that one slip. Oh, the shame and embarrassment.
Again, my point is that Shiite Mormons can be found everywhere, not just in Utah. There might be a SLIGHTLY higher concentration of them here, but that is all. All of the RMs here in Utah have been out in the world. Many to places much more deprived and depraved than you or I would ever know. They don’t judge the way you infer they do. They’ve seen and experienced much worse. We’re not all a bunch of ignorant Pharisees. Yes, there are some of those here, but you got some down in your neck of the woods too—most of them in other religions.
I’m being honest about my perspective, and I believe you are being honest about yours. There is no need for arrogance. The “Utah Way” is not in any way inferior to the “Eastern Way.” The Utah Way exist all over in the East and the Eastern Way exist all over in Utah (except on the BYU campus, I’ll grant you that, for sure.)
P.S. Andrew, I’ve been on your side of this boat (the U.S.S. Mormon Culture). I know your arguments. I’ve made them myself in the past. My brother left the Church because someone at BYU reported him for having hair slightly over his collar. That was the reason he gives, but I know he was doing other things much, much, much more serious. He is being dishonest when he uses that excuse. It would have only been a simple annoyance if someone had reported me for the same thing. But, that probably wouldn’t have happened, I don’t feel the need to make statements. I have nothing to rebel against. I’ve been there and done that. I don’t think you will ever feel true happiness until you give up on being offended, at finding fault. There are plenty of faults be be found in everyone. Saying you won’t live someplace because the people there are this way or that way is only limiting your potential. I’m perfectly happy to live in the “East” and have. I’m also perfectly happy to live in Utah.
you didn’t say “they picked it up in their youth.” You made the conclusion, “that person had a rebellious or troubled childhood.”
I mean, if you’re goiing to talk about what people do as teenagers and “regret,” then you’re going to find that generally *most* people have done something they regretted when they were teenagers. This is not a “rebellious or troubled childhood.”
“All I’m saying is that safe assumptions can be made. Everyone must make assumptions to one degree or another simply to survive in this world.”
The problem is that what you think are “safe assumptions” are non sequitur — they do not follow from the premises and scenarios you have given. It would be like thinking your wife is cheating on you because the oh-so-certain sign you have is that she watches TV. Obviously, this is not a “sign” and it would be silly to “safely assume” that TV watching is indicative of infidelity.
“That said, I agree with you that hyper-sensitivity to “signs” is very wrong. I’ve tried to point out that such is not really the case in Utah, at least not any more than it is elsewhere.”
If you say so…but I guess there will be nothing to show you that the assumptions you think are “safe” are seen as very weird (and biased, stereotypical) assumptions by others. So, it’s hard to just take your word that it’s “not really the case in Utah, at least not any more than it is elsewhere” when you bring up fresh evidence of the distasteful exceptionalism of Utah.
Once again, I’m not saying the Utah way is inferior to the Eastern way or vice versa, so please don’t perceive what I’m saying to be arrogance. I’m just saying that the cultural shock of the immense differences (which you seem perfectly acculturated to, so you may not even notice how strange some of the conclusions you make may sound) is a tough gap to close. There are faults in every place, but this does not mean you necessarily need to regard all the faults as being equally preferable. So a preference for one place over another isn’t to say that one place is “better” than the other, but that the faults of one area are preferable to those of another.
You are absolutely right. But, remember, I’ve lived, worked with and associated with the people of Las Vegas for many years. You can’t get much more non-Mormon culture anywhere else in the U.S. Many of these people would never date a smoker, or are “turned off” by tattoos. And they’re not even Mormons! I’m not weird! I’m normal, with normal faults, no different than any random guy you were to pick off the street anywhere. One of the persons I respect the most in this world happens to be gay! He was my boss, and I admired him greatly. I was introduced to my wife at a party hosted by a gay member of the church. I could care less. He grew up in Utah and found that virtually no one really treated him any differently there because if it. In fact, he was one of the most popular people in our ward! (Aren’t they always?) : ) He even moved back to Utah!
It was no easier or harder to wear a brown shirt to church in Las Vegas versus Salt Lake City. It’s all an illusion, man! If your looking for prejudices, you’re going to find them, sure, but if you’re not YOU WON’T FIND THEM.
Walk into a sacrament meeting in Salt Lake City, Utah and another one in Orlando, Florida and you won’t know the difference. Except there won’t be as many flip-flops on the feet in Salt Lake—it’s just too cold! The differences are all in your mind, or you will make out any miniscule differences you might find to be more than they are because of your own prejudices.
All this is really moot. If you absolutely KNOW the Church is true, you would care less what the culture is. If President Monsen said we should all stand on our heads an hour each day you would do it—if you KNEW he was the prophet and spoke to God. But, I guess you would have to know God exists first. If you don’t know then being in the East might be a better place for you. But, there are plenty of atheists in Utah as well, so it really doesn’t matter. It’s all an illusion!
So, is ‘the world’ outside of Utah basically summed up by Las Vegas? Interesting. I don’t really know what we’re talking about anymore.
I feel like you’re really trying to sell Utah for some reason, but it’s strange because even as you suggest that all the differences are “illusions,” what you *say* tells a particularly different story. But of course, people who live in Utah, who have lived in Utah, could tell these same stories.
Even the argument, “The only way you could see prejudices is if you’re looking for them,”…do you not realize the assumptions here? So, now, Utah is on a pedestal — just the same as everyone else — and if someone thinks otherwise, it’s a problem with that someone.
So why should someone want to live in a place where people think that?
Once again, I’m not the best person you should talk to, so I can’t really make comments about your last paragraph without you making all kinds of conclusions that need not be made.
Yeah, I don’t know what we are talking about anymore either. This has gone way beyond my original post. Can’t we all just get along?
People are people no matter where they live. Not all Utahans think the way I do, nor do all the people “out there” think like my sister. All I guess I’m saying is, “Don’t trash Utah.” It’s a great place too!
Andrew,
I know we’ve beaten this horse completely into it’s next incarnation, but I thought I saw it twitch, so I gave it a final whack (hopefully) in a followup post that will leave you in awe of my great wisdom and experience. If not, you’re just another one of those simple dunderheads unworthy of my superior insight. (There seems to be a lot of those around lately for some reason. Oh, well, just another ‘sign of the times.’)
Check it out:
http://hamsy2000.wordpress.com/2009/04/23/each-way-has-merit/
I am afraid that Utah Mormons have their own issue with arrogance.
[...] Mormonism has been viewed as that weird Utah thing, something that degrades true religion. On the other hand…children with Mormon identities, as [...]
[...] Mormonism has been viewed as that weird Utah thing, something that degrades true religion. On the other hand…children with Mormon identities, as [...]